Here are some questions thrown out by
Charles wrote:
To all of you in the group, whether you are in EC or House Church or even “Frikyrka” or established church with a mission focus…
I sometimes meet people who cannot distinguish between outward forms (expression of church and ways of being or doing church) and absoute core beliefs. In their attempt to reach their cultures and sub-cultures they have both changed the form (I have no problem here) and changed the message (and here I don’t mean presentation) or accomodated it so that the gospel is no longer the gospel but syncretism. I don’t want to get into massive discussions (I am not that type – I’m a practitioner) but I would like those of you who can to list in point form (maximum 7)
a.) the absolute minimum of what the gospel is
b.) the absolute minimum for someone to be a christian
c.) the absolute minimum for what it means to be “ekklesia” (church)
I would really appreciate this,
Charles
December 2, 2007 at 7:39 pm |
I cannot answer the questions the way they have been pu, probably since I don´t buy the underlying philosophy. (But I do understand Charles´ concerns, I think.) But I don´t think that it is possible to separate form from content in a clear way. Actually, I think this distinction (ideal-real, body-soul, form-content) is based on a philosophy that is more greek and/or modern, than biblical. So, since I try to connect my view to the gospel, I cannot answer the question.
Maybe I am “emerging” or “missional” in some way, but I am not interested in the minimum of the gospel, but the maximum. Therefore my answers would be:
a) the story of Jesus as described in the gospels, placed within the larger context of the OT story
b) to follow jesus and put into practice all the things he has commanded in the gospels
c) a group of people that, through God´s spirit, assembles regularly around jesus, and lives together in a way the reminds other people of him.
Something like that.
December 2, 2007 at 7:53 pm |
Hey Doug
How’s it going?
I think it’s absolutely impossible to answer these question. The gospel and christianity are not something you can measure in “minimum-maximum”-categories.
Besides that I think that the gospel as self realization is a much bigger problem than syncretism.
Peace -Steffen
December 2, 2007 at 8:22 pm |
Thanks Jonas! Not far from what I wrote.
Hey Steffen good point.
Here is what I wrote on the Missional Sweden group on facebook:
I think it is hard to minimize something deep. One will always miss something or miss the point that is being made. With this in mind let me make an attempt:
a.) the absolute minimum of what the gospel is
The “Good News” of Jesus, his Kingdom, his message and his mission!
b.) the absolute minimum for someone to be a christian
A follower of Jesus in his Kingdom, his message and mission.
c.) the absolute minimum for what it means to be “ekklesia” (church)
A community of followers of Jesus in his Kingdom, his message and mission.
December 3, 2007 at 9:15 am |
Thanks guys!
Jonas and Doug. Good job! I like what you wrote and in essence agree with both of you.
For clarification sake:
Jonas (love you brother – you and I have met before in other circumstances). I think you are assuming too much concerning my “underlying philosophy”. I am not a “Greek thinker” or “dualist” (even though I have a Greek background
. I am a “Hebrew” whole life practitioner of the gospel. Don’t brand me out of hand because of the stream(s) or role(s) that I was in many years ago or even today. A lot of what I do has to do with what God has called me to do. Part of what he has called me to do is to be a change agent. Briefly my approach when I meet/teach people in the “church” is: Meet them where they are (in language and concepts they are familiar with) and move them towards the ideal (living out the gospel of the Kingdom under the Lordship of Jesus).
General to all who replied:
The reason I asked the questions is related to what we all have in common the command of Jesus: to go and make disciples of all people groups (in Sweden and elsewhere).
Firstly, let me state where I am coming from: I believe God has and is changing the shape of church and bringing about a radical, robust and apostolic discipleship to Jesus that will impact our communities. This conviction comes from a number of sources : an inner conviction from the study of scripture; a heritage that is rooted in apostolic DNA from my South african christian experience with impulses from restoration movements in the UK (Wallis and company); a personal vision I received from the Lord (which I shared publicly at a 24-7 gathering); a personal experience of being a part of many different kinds of expression of church, from house church (not cell group) to large church, from lifestyle to “programme – consumerism” and so on; and finally observation of what I see happening here in Sweden and elsewhere.
Secondly – and this is what sometimes gets me into trouble with both sides of the spectrum – my understanding of Kingdom is wide enough to embrace the fact that God is working through both the “informal” movements and groups and the “formal” free-church and other church types in parallel. So for me, it is neither “either or” but “both and”. This means that I work with both – to impart “apostolic” values. Even though I enjoy working in “emerging missional” more.
To the questions I asked. In my, admittedly limited, meeting of people involved in “EC/house church” and reading their “blogs” and websites I meet a lot of what I can give a resounding “Yes” to. There are however some situations which leave me concerned. So, at the risk of being hung out to dry, here is what I sometimes meet:
1.) The starting of alternative groups out of reaction to what is seen as “established church or free-church” rather than out of inner conviction (or revelation). This group usually involves leaders who have been hurt by “the system” and end up angry, bitter and frustrated. They can often be identified by “excusing” what they are doing by their constant referal to the shortcomings and failings of the “existing way of being church”. They often end up defensive and secretive, insecure and sometimes isolated. I also think in some situations that there is too much rhetoric, analysis and philosophising and not enough “practising”.
My response: “hey, forgive, get healed up and do what you believe in out of inner conviction – not out of reaction. That way you will build healthily with the right kind of foundations (core truth and lifestyle values). Don’t build your identity out of crticising what is wrong with the existing church but build it from scripture – let Jesus build his church in his way with his character and his power!”
2.) I suppose this is the follow on from above. I agree and understand what Jonas is saying about form and content. But I find that in some situations there is too much emphasis placed on form (what it looks like, ambience, style, structure) and being relevant (sub-cultural and cultural meeting or accomodating to?) with a loss of emphasis on the Lordship of Jesus over all of life and the authority of the scriptures. They lower the cultural threshold but sometimes also lower the gospel threshold.
Now – what is laughable – is that this is precisely what some in “established church” are accused of doing! Structure and message and sometimes both together are inadequate!
The only barrier anybody should ever have to cross is the gospel barrier centering around “Jesus is Lord”. One cannot fudge around this fundamental truth. Sadly this has become watered down. Water this down and you get syncretism (self-realisation is part of this). When Jesus is Lord and the Holy Spirit in the believers is allowed to work in them and illuminate the scriptures, then lifestyle and form follow organically. The nuances in form can be different from place to place and is related to personality, preference, calling and gifting.
I think I could have phrased the questions differently. I suppose that what I was trying to get to was “What is core?” i.e. essential to be what defines a follower of Jesus, what it means to be church and what is the “word of slavation” we proclaim. And then “What is peripheral?” (i.e. non essential but is part of our make-up/identity/preferences/vision/emphasis and so on as a group of people).
OOPS! For a guy who only wanted short answers – I have written a lot. Sorry. But since I am new to some of you it may be good for you to learn a little about me.
Guys – I really think that you need to gather those in “EC/house church/missional church” together for a “round table” day or weekend (Friday night to a Saturday early evening) to share food, life, testimonies, opportunity for dialogue and so on. I believe this a stream that God wants to build in an organic momentum that will cause it to explode in our cities and nation that will see many come to Christ and living out his lifestyle. Part of what he wants to happen is that you “network” face to face so you get a bigger picture of what is happening. Don’t let peripheral stuff (or even “pet doctrines” at this stage) be an excuse for not meeting each other in this manner.
Love and blessings,
Charles
December 3, 2007 at 5:48 pm |
Charles. I appreciate that you share your thoughts on this. I agree with most of what you say, but maybe not everything. I think there are initiatives coming, one of those might be this:
http://bagiskommuniteten.blogspot.com/2007/10/nymonastiskt-initiativ-1-3-febr-08.html
(By David Åhlén who also has the great blog Timmen är sen.)
I definitely think we need to meet more. I also think that EC-people differ a lot on almost every issue. I agree with those that describes this as a conversation, rather than a movement. If you would like more of my perspective on things you could visit my blog.
http://blog.bahnhof.se/wb938188
December 3, 2007 at 6:44 pm |
Charles,
I would like to meet with you and others face to face to talk more about this.
I think in some camps the Gospel might be watered down but I think in most EC groups there is a great desire for the Church to follow the way of Jesus. To live out the missio Dei. It gets messy when new things are happening. Like you said the Gospel gets watered down in a lot of established churches as well.
I think a lot of the questions you are asking are the same ones that are being ask by those who are in or are moving into the EC Conversation.
“What is core?” i.e. essential to be what defines a follower of Jesus, what it means to be church and what is the “word of slavation” we proclaim. And then “What is peripheral?” (i.e. non essential but is part of our make-up/identity/preferences/vision/emphasis and so on as a group of people).”
The Answers might not be what we are use to.
Lets keep talking!
December 6, 2007 at 9:31 am |
Thank you Douglas and Jonas,
Jonas – I have looked at your blog – very interesting. I read the theological school article and can concur with a lot of what you say. By the way I have challenged the faculty and staff at ÖTHS on two occassions concerning a couple of the issues you raised. The first time was when I asked the question, “What do you have as a vision? What do you want to see happening in the lives of students and what do you want to reproduce in them? What is actually produced? What happens after they leave? Do they reflect Jesus and expand the Kingdom? Do they reproduce disciples and equip the believers for service?” The second time was, “How do people learn? Do you integrate the cognitive with ‘being’ and ‘doing’? Is classroom teaching environment the way people actually learn? Do you know things are more caught than taught?” Then shared on the Jesus method of discipleship. I did not doubt that they love God, are well-intentioned and want to expand the kingdom, but a paradigm shift is needed in this area.
Douglas and Jonas – if you are in Stockholm and have a free hour let me know. It would be great to take a fika with you and share Jesus and the Kingdom.
March 27, 2008 at 3:39 pm |
I know this post is probably dead now… but as I read it for the first time some 4 months later… I wanted to throw my 2 cents in (ahhh yes, I gave it away… I’m American… how about I throw in my 50 Ore?)
For the first question I think Paul defines what the “minimum” is for the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. “For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures,” This sums it up pretty well and is really a repeat of what Jesus said of the Gospel in Luke 24:46-47. I buy into this as the bare minimum and see all of the other facets growing out from this starting point.
Second, what is the minimum to be a Christian? Wow… I’m sorry to say but I disagree with most of you. Many of you put something like; to be “a follower of Jesus in his Kingdom, his message and mission.” or to live out the missio dei. Am I to then understand that in order to be saved (and therefor a true Christian) I have to do something? I have to live a certain way? That sounds awfully “works” oriented. Again I would yield to scripture and see what it says… Romans 10:9 says “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So it seems like it is as simple as that.
Now again, that would be a “minimum”. I would HOPE, that once someone receives the gift of forgiveness and salvation form all the crap that we have done, that one would desire to live a life that would glorify the God of forgiveness and mercy.
Third, The absolute minimum to be the church… I’ve never heard that question before… I would again say that when scripture talks of “two or three gathered together…” that could be considered a church. I gave a sermon once in Doug’s church about the church as the BODY – Believers who are Obedient to God, Doing what He calls of us to do and Yearning for more of Him each and every day. This was taken from Acts 2. but I think there are churches that function as a body of Christ and churches that are social groups. Our job as pastors, missionaries, and leaders are to develop a social group (community) that cares enough to live out the Gospel by propagating it to those around us in words and actions.
March 27, 2008 at 3:40 pm |
PS… I miss fika!!!! I think I’ll go have fika now!